Ulrich

If you’re comparing them to those brands then you’re obviously just intentionally cherry picking vehicles that are not comparable and you know it.

How long is going to take these corporate morons to realize they’re being duped? Like, you could have tested this with a focus group and realized it wasn’t going to work in 5 minutes and saved yourself the trouble…

Yes. They are. Significantly.

Yes, they’re cheap because the competition is higher end vehicles.

No they’re not. They’re cheap because they’re subsidized.

tl;dr they’re not using AI for obvious reasons

We will not use an LLM to add a chatbot, a summarization solution or a suggestion engine to fill up forms for you, until more rigorous ways to do those things are available.

Vivaldi is the haven for people who still want to explore. We will continue building a browser for curious minds, power users, researchers, and anyone who values autonomy. If AI contributes to that goal without stealing intellectual property, compromising privacy or the open web, we will use it. If it turns people into passive consumers, we will not.

No one is denying that the tariffs exist. I’m denying that it “balances out”. BYD is still way cheaper than comparable EVs.

BYDs seem cheap because they make budget EVs. Mercedes, Audi, etc, do not.

Mercedes, Audi, etc. are established several decade old prestigious brands that don’t need rock bottom prices to gain market share.

BYDs don’t “seem” cheap. They are cheap.

Doesn’t the EU balance it out with tariffs?

No.

Those cheap BYDs ain’t all that cheap here

Yes they are.

Now if EU increased subsidies for domestic EV production, domestic solar panel production, etc… We could really have something great.

Truth there.

Sure, it’s great for everyone, right up until it’s not anymore because they’ve erased the competition and then jacked up the prices to the point that common people can’t afford them, and further driven down workers’ wages in the process.

Is no one else familiar with the concept of Predatory Pricing?

Nope you are just wrong and intentionally spreading false equivalencies and making strawman arguments.

Let’s put aside for a moment the fact that I only spoke negatively about the US (the discussion was about Europe), and instead focus on the fact that the US has subsidized electric vehicles from around the world to the tune of $1B in an effort to promote the sales of clean vehicles. China has subsidized to the tune of $230B for domestic vehicles only.

Then stop replying to me.

Good. I hate the global economy.

I have no response to this.

Oh okay so basically you were wrong but it doesn’t matter. And I’ve been duped into hating a communist dictatorship that censors all public discourse and has exploited slave wages for the last several decades. Got it.

Yeah, I’m not engaging with someone who deals in personal insults and bad faith arguments. Goodbye.

I didn’t word anything poorly, you just read it poorly.

doesn’t matter if it’s subsidized since as I said, they are hit by tarrifs in the EU so they don’t undercut the market

It does matter because tariffs do not even come close to making them even. Seriously, have you considered at all the economics of this? Do you think the Chinese are such fucking savants that they’re able to produce these cars basically for fucking free?

nice job with your totally not obvious downvoting with your alt account.

Oh, honey…

At least their “self-interest“ has cheaper EVs for the rest of the world as a result.

It cannot be both. Either:

1. CCP is subsidizing EVs to “save the climate” and they will stay cheap and subsidized forever because the communist dictator is actually just a totally super nice guy who cares about the global climate.

2. CCP is subsidizing EVs to dominate the global market, after which prices will go sky high and economies around the world (including yours) will suffer, because they’ve driven out all of the competition.

Which one do you think it is?

I never wrote that.

No, but you did jump into that conversation. If you were trying to have some other argument, you were arguing with a strawman.

But if a side effect of utterly dominating the west in decarbonizing has the side effect of saving the climate I’m not gonna complain.

There is no “saving the climate”. There is only China dominating the industry and then pricing them out of the hands of common people, because they have no competition.

Another effect is destroying the global economy and further diminishing the wages of workers in the US and around the world. But hey, maybe you like being poor.

So then you agree you were wrong…?

What goalpost did I move?

This one:

Thank you Xi Jinping for saving the climate 🙏

US made tesla what it is with a lot of state aid and it still failed.

LOL what? What makes you say Tesla “failed”? They’re an incredibly large and profitable company.

You tried to paint it as if only china provides subsidies as some sort of gotcha.

I did no such thing. You are trying to paint what I said that way as some sort of gotcha. Many countries have EV subsidies. None of them compare to that of those from the CCP.

The US, for example, has paid approx. $1B in clean vehicle tax credits for electric and hybrid vehicles originating from around the world. China? $230B.

…you know that comment has zero reference to the Chinese market, right? You realize the CCP can subsidize the construction of vehicles that are exported out of China, right?